Dr. Paul R. Lawrence, Deputy Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Named Chief Influencer
Anthony Shop: Welcome to another episode of Chief Influencer. I'm your host, Anthony Shop, co-founder of Social Driver. Let's face it: Washington is the center of influence in the U.S. and, arguably, in the world. Chief Influencer features leaders who have figured out how to break through in today's fragmented and fast-changing environment. Social Driver teamed up with the Communications Board and the George Washington University College of Professional Studies to recognize these incredible leaders as chief influencers and highlight how they inspire and influence others. I'm thrilled to be here in person today at the VA with our guest, the Honorable Paul R. Lawrence, Ph.D., the 11th Under Secretary of the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. Dr. Lawrence serves as the department's second-in-command and chief operating officer, helping lead one of the largest and most complex organizations in the federal government—actually, in the world. He does this in service of America's veterans.
Now, before we dive in, here are a few things I think you should know about Under Secretary Lawrence. First, he's a proven leader in large-scale public service delivery. As Under Secretary, Dr. Lawrence directs policy and operations across the VA, ensuring coordinated action and execution of the secretary's priorities. Previously, he served as the VA's Under Secretary for Benefits, overseeing the delivery of more than $100 billion annually in benefits to millions of veterans and their families. Second, Dr. Lawrence bridges government business and management excellence with 35 years of experience solving complex management challenges. He's led in both the public and private sectors, including serving as a consulting partner at two Fortune 500 companies. He's also authored several books on building more effective and efficient government. And finally, Dr. Lawrence brings a deep commitment to service and leadership. A U.S. Army veteran and Airborne School graduate, he was awarded the Meritorious Service Medal for his military service, among many other honors.
Dr. Lawrence, you've been called an Army captain, Fortune 500 partner, National Academy of Public Administration fellow, government executive of the year, published author, and, of course, Under Secretary of the VA. Today, we're proud to call you a chief influencer. Welcome to the show.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Hey, thank you, Anthony. Thank you so much for caring about veterans, too.
Anthony Shop: Absolutely. Well, we're really thrilled to have you here with us and to be with you today here. Um, you were recommended to us by some leaders at a roundtable discussion at LinkedIn as a public sector leader who does a great job showing up with your personal brand to advance your mission. And so I'm really thrilled to dive into the conversation today. And I want to start just by asking: you have a unique career because you haven't been in government your whole career. You spent a lot of time in the private sector. Um, what's been the biggest adjustment in shifting from consulting to leading inside of a federal agency, and what strengths would you say translate best?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Certainly. Well, first, one of the things about consulting is you advise. You have clients, often in government, as was my case, and they invite you to work on problems and you give them advice and ideas, and you can coach them right up to the point—but they have to go do. Now, in government, you do. You make decisions, you execute projects, you have to go and do the work. So the problem-solving skills as a consultant translated readily, right? Hey, what would the problem be? Right, can we bring math to understand the effects and the like? But the ability to go and execute was what's different.
And, of course, what's different in government, as you know, it's the scale, right? There are very few places that have 441,000 employees. You can say, "Oh yeah, this is just like that." It's not. The complexity and, you know, we have a lot of stakeholders. We have a lot of issues, right? We're simultaneously a healthcare company, a benefits company (which is kind of like insurance), and then we deal with memorial affairs—a very personal experience. And stakeholders: everybody's interested in veterans' issues, not just Congress; the nonprofits, as you've pointed out elsewhere. And so we really, you know, have to deal with a lot. And then finally, there's the pace. Ironically, I think our government was designed to go slow, but inside it goes very fast. So there's just a whole bunch of things that are different but similar.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. Every chief influencer we've talked to, they have to influence a number of stakeholders, and you mentioned there's so many stakeholders with the VA, such a complex organization. What are some of the things that people don't necessarily know about the VA that are important for them to understand about the size, the scale, the scope of this operation?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Certainly. Well, our mission drives so much of what we do, right? And because we're a cabinet agency, we have to pay a great deal of attention to the President's agenda. That's why we're all here. Our Secretary then rearticulates to us in his priorities. So we have to make sure we are following those priorities—and "have to" is... "we need to make sure" is probably better—to make sure we're aligned. A large organization has a lot of opportunity for folks to call... fall out of line.
So in the private sector, you know, "this is your business unit, we have to make this amount of money, this amount of profit, do these certain things." Sometimes in government, it is less clear, and that's what you have to do: bringing clarity, getting people focused, and the like. So that tends to be a real thing. The other thing, our mission then plays its way out in a bunch of different ways. Laws require us to do certain things. So, for example, most people are unfamiliar with what we call our fourth mission, which is: in time of national emergency, VA steps up. So during the pandemic, our hospitals were available. During periods of emergency, our hospitals will be available. So we're there for that, too. That's less talked about, but that's where we... that's where we get involved in those.
Anthony Shop: Yeah, a lot of things people aren't always aware of until you need it. The VA has benefits and programs that can be literally life-changing for the folks you serve, but many veterans and caregivers, they may not always know exactly what exists or how to access those uh programs. How do you think about getting the right information to the right people at the right time?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: This is something we think about all the time and spend a lot, an awful lot of time worrying about it. You're right. The American public, through Congress, has set in motion a series of benefits for veterans that they've earned by virtue of their service, right? And we like to think about it as so many of them help them pursue a veteran's American dream, right? Home with no money down, free college education, healthcare if you're qualified, and the like. It really enables you to get ahead of your civilian counterparts.
And so, part of it is getting the information out. And nothing is more disappointing than when you hear someone say, "I didn't know I was a veteran. I didn't know I was eligible for these things." So we spend an awful lot of time thinking about how we communicate with that. And so, as you can imagine, it's not just one channel for us. So social media is great if you have the internet. A lot of our veterans don't use the internet; they're older, and that's just the way it is. So we have to be prepared to write them letters, answer the phones, have them be able to call us. And quite frankly, even if we did all that, some parts of the country—generally this is not just rural areas—don't have internet capabilities in the way that we could even do that. So it's one of these things where we're always imagining what channels work, why, how are we doing, and so we have to do all of them simultaneously.
Anthony Shop: And I want to get into social media in a little bit about you because you have a personal presence as we sort of started with. Um, you all have a lot of information on va.gov. And, you know, when you have so much information, that can make it hard to navigate. What does making benefits more accessible actually look like in practice, especially for people who aren't... people who aren't necessarily experts in government and what those benefits are?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Certainly. Well, you earn a series of benefits, and they range from, you know, getting your GI Bill. One of the things that gets a lot of attention is what's called disability compensation. You've been hurt in service, and you get money to deal with your injury as well as economic impairment—"Hey, I can't earn a living the way I imagined." So uh we administer that. So access to benefits has a couple of ways to think about it. One is what the veterans tell us, not only through our surveys, but Secretary Collins and I go out and do roundtables outside Washington, D.C., where we talk to veterans and get feedback. And generally, we take questions and listen to what they're telling us, right?
So they'll tell us, "We want our benefits fast, we want them right, and we want it convenient in the process." So access to benefits means timeliness. We also know they want to be able to get to us easily. So va.gov is one way to do that. So, ignoring the problems of the internet if you don't have the technology, we want them to log on and want the experience to be easy. We, of course, are benchmarked in every veteran's mind against places like Amazon. So as much as we're getting better, we know the world is moving faster. So you'd be surprised to know that we uh have a request for a contract out now to have someone help us make va.gov even better. Okay?
So we know the world is moving ahead of us, and we know that's one of the avenues you do that. So access is, yes, we'll do it quickly, but we'll make it easy for you to interact with us. The secretary has given us a challenge: one of the forms of where you get your benefits is 18 pages long. Wow. Why isn't that three or four pages? And that's what we're working on.
Anthony Shop: I'm glad that you brought up the Amazon comparison because a lot of organizations, they think, you know, "Well, we can only do so much." But your customer, the people who you serve, they're using Amazon, or they might be using Uber or grocery delivery. And so their expectation for how they interact with services has changed significantly. How do you... how do you think about that? That... I mean, you mentioned the contract that you have. Um, but from an influence standpoint, we have to influence people who are being affected by platforms that we don't control, and yet that means that they're expecting something. I'd love to just hear a little bit more about that in that challenge.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: First, first we have to talk about it candidly and precisely, okay? We have to talk about what it means to measure our services. So let's go back to uh the disability compensation because this is the one... the benefit that is uh generally used a lot and well-known. About 60 or 70 billion dollars a year go out in these payments, if I remember the numbers right. So we need to talk candidly and say, "Okay, so what happened?" When President Trump was inaugurated, it took on average—we call it average days to complete, ADC—140 days to complete an application. Now it takes about 75, okay? So you think, "Wow, that's pretty good management," a whole bunch of things.
But of course, we have to talk candidly. They're getting their packages in 24 hours. What are the expectations? It is cool and unfair, but that's the world we're living in. And so 75 sounds great, but we're challenging ourselves now to get it down by half, yeah, right? And so that's the sense because, again, veterans tell us, "You know, I earn these benefits. What's taking so long? Why can't..." you know, in this instant world. And these are good challenges. And so I think the... the... the real challenge as leaders is to talk candidly. Okay, we're pretty good, but we're not really good, but we could be really good, but we have to figure that one out. And so I talk about that not just the one benefit I talked about, but in all the benefits. When you go to use your GI Bill, you can have this done in seconds because we know what the technology can do. So it's candidly talking about where you are and you can... and just being honest about the situation.
Anthony Shop: Being honest about the challenge. Yeah, and it's all a matter of perspective, because you say, "Oh, we cut it in half." I mean, that can sound really great, but if you're that veteran who's waiting for those benefits, then you know, waiting more than two months, it maybe not... doesn't feel so great to them.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: And they tell us that, and we have to understand that, right? And so yes, it's the unfair situation of expectations, and it's no different than any industry and any company.
Anthony Shop: Industries you mentioned, they tell you that. And earlier you mentioned that the town halls that you and the secretary participate in. Um, I know you get a lot of ideas from these town halls, and this is an important way of listening. I also think it's very interesting that uh you know, some members of Congress may be avoiding this format lately. It's... it's a challenging format because you have to be ready to accept criticism. Can you talk about the approach of organizing town halls? How they're valuable in the moment, but I know that you also are... are... are learning from those, and you're getting information that you're finding other ways to amplify beyond the people who are in those rooms.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Certainly. So the way I do it is uh for my... one of the projects I'm in charge of is the electronic health record. We're putting in a new electronic health record that requires me to go places and see things. Often spending the night in the evening of when I'm out there, before I spend the night, before I go back to the hotel, is we'll arrange with an American Legion post or a VFW post to go there and hold a town hall. They'll invite all their members, friends, family, the like. They generally average about 50-ish people there. Six or seven o'clock in an evening. Um, and so that... it starts with me at the front of the room and they say, "Hey, welcome, do whatever." I talk for 10 minutes: "Here's what's going on." And then we take questions.
These are unfiltered questions from the members in the audience about what's on their mind, okay? Comments: "Hey, I love the VA." Comments: "Hey, you dropped the ball," and the like. What we do is also what Congress would call constituent services. We have people from the different parts of the organization. So if you say, "I have a personal complaint about my situation," we'll talk generally about it, but say, "Oh, go see the person over there in the blue shirt. He or she will pop up their computer and we will figure out what's going on and see if we can't resolve it right now." So we'll do that in the room as well.
But what's really valuable is exactly what you said. Looking on... take notes while it's going. What are the questions they're asking? What are they telling? Now, some of it is, of course, not precise, but some of it, go... you know, there's a pattern here. We've been doing this, we're seeing a pattern. I'll go back and look at stuff. They're getting a lot of complaints about... a lot of comments about this benefit or this process. What's going on? And often they're right. It's the first indication that something needs to be done.
And so one... they talked about a benefit that had got healthcare to family members under certain situation based on status of your veteran, right? 75,000 people were waiting almost three months to get this benefit. We looked at it and said, "It needs to be better." Right now, it's like less than a thousand people; it takes care of about three days. Okay? You know, so... so the information is really valuable in what you can learn. And so that's something we're very proud of, which is we think we're the only members of the... at the cabinet who are outgoing, listening to what people are telling you about your services.
Anthony Shop: And it kind of sounds to me like, when we think about this idea of influence and how we have to influence others—and, you know, we'll get into that a little bit more soon—um, you're allowing them to influence you through those. You're using that information to identify what to prioritize. And that's kind of a... interesting. When you're consulting, obviously there are mechanisms—you know, focus groups, stakeholders, etc.—to be influenced, but you're doing it on behalf of someone. And it's... it's different when you're doing it for yourself and you're having to go and take unfiltered feedback. And again, it's not... I don't... I don't know if every uh cabinet uh department does that, um, and but it sounds like it's very valuable and it influences what you focus on and how you get the information out to the...
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: And I will post on LinkedIn, as we'll talk about, about these events so people can see we are out listening. We are trying hard to be transparent. We are trying hard to feed... deal with this information. And so I want people to know we are doing this because we know this is what our customers, our veterans, value. And also, it's really important to go to places like the Legion because they represent institutions in our country, veterans, the history, and all the things, and they've been very supportive of VA.
So it's a... it's a great place to do it. And so we want to talk about it candidly. And you know, we tend to focus on questions that they... folks need more service, but discount... generally most people have very good experience with VA. And once or twice in these conversations in the town, someone will stand up and say, "Listen, I don't know what these guys are talking about. I have awesome experience. The doctor saved my life. I had a heart attack. I was contemplating harming myself." So we know that's out there. We spend more time on the resolving issues because we know that's what people want, but it... it's generally moving in that sense like, "Hey, we... customers are talking to us and they're really appreciative." Um, I've never had a problem. People are very warm. At the end, they all want to talk, they all want to get pictures, they all want to do 21st-century stuff. And... and it's... and in many ways, it's satisfying.
Anthony Shop: Well, they must appreciate being listened to. And you know, we all know that whether it's the comments online or whether it's in-person town halls, the people who have a problem are more motivated to show up than the people who just say, "Oh, I had a good experience." So it probably feels good when you hear those... those good ones. Outside of those town halls, I know you've worked to reach more people online. You launched the "Glad You Asked" video series, for example, to answer some questions that those same veterans are asking you at these town halls. Um, let's uh just pause for a moment and take a listen to one of those videos.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence (in video clip): Last month, I attended an Honor Flight, and a caregiver and a veteran came up to me and she said, "Ask him the question." He said, "No, no, ask him the question. I want to know, too." And the question was, "Can I be buried at a VA cemetery?" And I was really glad they asked because, as I explained the answer, other folks came up and wanted to hear the answer. So I'm glad they asked about our cemeteries. There are 156 around the country, and they provide awesome service. If you Google them, you'll see they have some of the highest satisfaction levels of anything provided by the VA or elsewhere in the country. So the short answer is: yes, you may be eligible if the following happens. You served on active duty and your discharge was anything but dishonorable. Now, your spouse or dependent can also be buried there if they, in fact, are related to an eligible service member. There's rules for Guard and Reserves, but they're a little complicated, so you should look online, find out more.
Anthony Shop: So we just listened to one of the "Glad You Asked" uh videos that you've been using. And tell me a little bit more about how you are inspired by what you hear in person to decide what types of videos you create to get the message out to a broader group of people.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Well, first is the patterns and trends I see and hear when I do the town halls, right? I see they're asking the same... I'm hearing the same question. My sense is the information we're providing is maybe not precise, maybe not clear. So in the less than two minutes those videos are, I go and say, "This is the question I hear, let me tell you the high-level answer." And I use a whiteboard because I like to write stuff so people can take pictures of and say, "Here, go to this website, understand what you need to do. Here's the three things that help you deal with that issue, get that benefit, and the like." So it's questions like that, as well as just general thinking, say, "You know, that question was about this general area. I'm guessing there's probably another series of questions. Let's just get those out there, too, to help folks realize it's all here for you." Because, again, if you think about one of your first questions was, "Hey, lot of information, how does anybody get it?" Well, this will be another avenue to teach, train, inform, yeah, and the like. And then when they're posted on LinkedIn, you get comments: "Hey, that was great. I wish you'd told me about something else." "Oh, that's a good idea. Let's make another... another episode of the... of the series."
Anthony Shop: Yeah, and you really leaned into that whiteboard style. It made me wonder: when you were consulting, is that... is that kind of a natural approach for you? Were you a bit... big white-boarder, and then that just worked well and flowed into the way you communicate with veterans through this video series?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Um, yeah, absolutely. I like lists. I'm a visual person. I want stuff written down. I want to be able to go back and refer to something. And if I was to... you were to ask me a question, I would flip you something. I wouldn't say, "Well, go to one minute 30." Say, "Hey, look at this picture," right? If you notice in the comments, we always take a thumbshot of it so you can see it, and you can work through my sloppy handwriting and then you can bring and... and find the information there. So we're trying everything we can to get veterans the information they need that helps them access what they've earned.
Anthony Shop: And some of the things that come up in those videos... I mean, you've covered a ton of topics. But for example, um, eligibility for burial in a VA cemetery. You had a video on that, and it... it... it drew a lot of attention. Um, why do you think that topic resonated? And I guess what does it tell you about some of the questions that people may be uncomfortable asking, but then when it... it's online they go and they reference it?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah, well, this is a couple things going on that got me to there. One was people often forget. They think about VA—"Oh, it's the hospitals, oh, it's the GI Bill and the benefits." They often forget we run a very large uh cemetery, national cemeteries. And also we're really good at this. When they do the American Customer Satisfaction Index, right, our cemeteries, the National Cemetery Administration, is at the top of the list for everybody. So this is a really good service.
Now, what I've learned, though, from my previous job with VA is often when you're dealing with people who have had a death in the family, the veteran, it is a very difficult period of time. And so they... "Hey, I... my husband was a veteran, I'm supposed to do... how do I get them... how do I get them buried? How do I get a service?" and the like. So the reason why this is important is the benefit I was describing in the "Glad You Asked" was how you determine your eligibility for our cemeteries. And you can do this at any age. So our message is really: yes, obviously if you're at the end of life, well, but ideally we'd like you to do this early so your loved ones don't go through additional stress, frustration when they're... when they're grieving. So that was really the message. And what I would do often, say, "Do this now." You... there's no... it's not age-independent. "Do this now and you'll know, and this will just make it so much easier on the folks you love later."
Anthony Shop: Yeah. And I mean, I feel like we whet people's appetites on that. What's the thing you want them to know about eligibility, just so that they go check out that full...
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: They check out the video, and you'll be asked, "So are you... you prove you're a veteran, you've proven your DD214. We'll do some search to make sure you're eligible. You can't be a criminal." There's a whole series of things. But what's... it is very quickly resolved. And you'll be interested to know, at a roundtable of a town hall I did in Michigan a couple weeks ago—might have been a month ago—the question everybody wanted to ask was about burial benefits. The woman from the National uh Cemetery Administration took all the questions, and everybody tended to be older and they were like, "This is great. I don't do the internet." To which she said, "I have a packet here of forms." Okay? It was 1970s all over again. They all got great service, they were ecstatic at the end, and they knew this will be just one less thing... In this case, it was mostly guys. "My wife will have to deal with."
Anthony Shop: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I guess it's a good reminder. I mean, you're reaching people on LinkedIn and YouTube, which we've talked about, but you're also doing postcards, text messaging... you know, it... it takes every form when you have to reach an audience of over 400,000 people, right?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Right, right, right. Those are 400,000 your employees, actually about...
Anthony Shop: Yeah.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: 17 and a half million veterans.
Anthony Shop: So you're right, that's our... that's our uh that's our audience. Yeah. So last month I had the opportunity to go to the annual convening for Face the Fight. And um, I know you know what that is, but Face the Fight, for those who don't know, is a life-saving initiative that unites more than 250 cross-sector partners. And it's corporations, nonprofits, academic institutions, and... and now the VA is a part of that. And it's focused on dramatically reducing veteran suicide by 2032. That initiative was founded by USAA, uh Reach Resilience, and the Humana Foundation. And you seem like a really perfect leader to ask, with your private sector and public sector leadership: why is it so important that, when faced with a huge challenge, we don't just depend on government, or just depend on the private sector, or just depend on the nonprofit sector, but that we get coalitions that bring all of those sectors together to work on the issue?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah, this issue is particularly important to our secretary. Secretary G. Collins very much cares about this. His challenge to us has been, you know, every year for the last decade or more, we spend about $500 million on this and the number doesn't change. So he's really challenged us to think hard about what's going on. Now, one of the things we do know: that when veteran homelessness was driven down, when veteran employment was really worked on, it was an all-of-the-above strategy. It wasn't just VA; it was getting everybody together.
So this is a very familiar model to us. And so we're excited that USAA... USAA wants to do this, putting in their own money. That's great. And enlisting others. We know that what we've got to do is have... reach out to folks. We want them to come to VA. So part of it is: hey, amplify our message because we know that... I think the number is 70% of the people end up harming themselves have not been to a VA. They haven't connected with us. So if we can do things like get the message out through groups like this, as well as new ideas, we know, given the history of what's gone on at this number, it's really disturbing and it's not moving. So it's a search for other ideas and other approaches we should be thinking about.
Anthony Shop: And one of the kind of bright spots that I uh heard when I was at this event was that even though you're right, the number's not really moving—it's a major challenge—those individuals who do seek help from the VA have a much lower incidence of suicide, like you were saying. And so if you can get people access to those resources, if they can, you know, um go seek help, it makes a huge difference. And that's why they're focused on reducing the stigma, getting people to talk about it and not just ignore the issue, but say, "Hey, we have to talk about this problem," right?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: And... and it's also really moved. It's matured the conversation. A while ago, it would have been "call this number." Now it's "look for this, understand these things. It's okay to do something." We've got to, as they say, move the conversation to the left. Yeah. And so... and so this is really helping that conversation. Now we're putting more people aware, and often it's just like, "Hey, you're good. Tell your buddy this. Yeah, you know, tell your network this, tell your community this, tell them about these resources." And so it really helps... helps us try to reach more.
Anthony Shop: This episode is brought to you by the George Washington University's College of Professional Studies. With in-person and online programs ranging from Master's degrees and public relations strategy to certificate programs in digital communications, GW offers more than just the credentials to help working professionals get ahead. It prepares them to be leaders in their field. Check out cps.gwu.edu for more information. Yeah, and I think Buddy Check Week is a really good example of that. Do you want to speak to that?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah, certainly. So buddy checks is what... something we talk about all the time. Call your veteran, your veteran buddy—we call them your veteran friend—and just check in. "How are you doing?" Just have a conversation and let them... you know you're there, right? It's connectivity. When you're in the military, as I'm sure you learned from before, you're part of a tribe, right? You're doing something, you have meaning, purpose, and money. When you leave the military, now you don't. Ideally, you get a job, go to school, active in your faith. But if you're not, now we really begin to work... well, we worry a lot, but now the worries are amplified. And this is the moment. "Oh, I have friends calling me. I'm participating in these things. I'm going to nonprofit, I'm on... you know, doing their 5K." Right? Yeah. We know that connectivity is really, really important.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. And that transition period when you leave service tends to be one of the most difficult times, which is why I think Buddy Check Week's kind of a good example of that cross-sector collaboration. Because obviously the VA spearheads that, but I know Face the Fight was involved. They got um some celebrity influencers like Cafe Anderson to uh post about it on social media, and then Starbucks got involved and gave away free coffees if you pledge to contact your buddy. So it's one of those areas where, if we want to influence around a major issue, it can't just all come from one exact voice. It needs to be different organizations that have different capabilities coming together.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: And... and it's really interesting you point this out because you're exactly right. We have to find avenues for people to participate in veterans' issues even though they haven't thought about it. So one thing I was very active in when I was out of office is home... veteran homelessness, right? And so VA has a lot of money to get folks off the street, but it's not just giving them a home. It's also getting wraparound services: you need mental health, substance abuse, and the like. One of the things I found out was, "Okay, so now congratulations, we found an apartment for you, but there's no furniture in it." So I was like, "How do you solve that?" And he goes, "We knock on doors of folks who make or sell furniture and ask, 'Will you give us something you couldn't sell? A table that maybe has a dent in it.'"
And what they found was people's very high willingness to say yes, and also, "But no one's ever asked me. No one ever asked me to do this. I'm happy to do this." Old clothes, you know, gently used... people... so having a forum like that where people can engage, the companies can engage and do the things you described makes it easy for everybody to help.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a really great point. I think when you think about influence, right—I mean, we want to motivate people to do something. We want to motivate people to action, whether that's policymakers or, you know, someone to check up on a buddy. But sometimes you just have to ask to get them to do something. And that's something we... some... we forget. We focus so much on awareness, we may actually forget to make the ask, right?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: And that's why social media is so great because it's like, "Hey, this is going on. We are doing this thing." And through social, people can connect. Often I just did a post the other day about "How do you volunteer?" right? "How do you volunteer at VA?" And then we have a lot of programs to do this. And one caught someone's attention. He said, "I would like to do that in my community. I did not know this person's name at VA." He self-identified: "I lead this program, I just direct message you, let's figure out how that happened." So again, it's like understanding what the issues, the programs are, the opportunities are, and seeing if there are ways to connect. If pre-social media, who knows how that would have happened, if at all.
Anthony Shop: Yeah, because you can only have so many town halls, you can only have so many in person, so it can complement that, right? So we actually filmed a special episode of Chief Influencer at that Face the Fight convening, and we featured three of their ambassadors: uh celebrity chef Robert Irvine, 19th Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force JoAnne Bass, and former Congressman and Under Secretary of the Army Patrick Murphy. And each one of them reminded, maybe even challenged the coalition members in the room that they all have the power to leverage their own personal influence to advance missions larger than themselves, such as the the uh Face the Fight mission around veteran suicide.
And you know, you're a poster child for doing this because you are very active on LinkedIn, you're creating these YouTube videos. Did you ever think, going into government at such a senior level, that that was going... part of your job was going to be to become a content creator or a YouTuber? Because I mean, that's part of what your job is now as the number two here at the VA. And I guess I'd ask you also: what would you say to leaders who hesitate to show up on camera or to use their their personal brands, their personal channels, their personal influence to advance goals like that?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: I didn't really think this would happen the way you've described it, but I'm not surprised because I always thought that to get messages out, you had to be able to communicate, right? So in high school, I was the editor of the newspaper. You know, when I was here, I would write op-eds. When magazines matter, I'd try to write articles about, "Hey, I think these are important," right? But over time, those became less relevant.
And I remember thinking one time, "I've seen something about an organization that's supporting veterans that others should see this. What do I do with this and how do I do it?" And then I realized, you know, the President's going directly to the American public on then Twitter, right? I said, "Hey, what about copying... putting this in LinkedIn and say, 'This matters. This is really good for veterans.'" And so I did this once on a Sunday just to kind of see what happened. I said, "This is really powerful." I think it was an employment issue or they were supporting veterans in a way you wouldn't have imagined. Really good response, connections, requests, and the like.
And it kind of began from there because I saw what we could do with that. So I would tell other folks, especially the folks you mentioned—though I know several of them and they're... they're... they are active on LinkedIn—if you care about this issue passionately, like, what's the point? Is it personal satisfaction? Well, that's interesting, and maybe that's all you really need. Or is it something you feel passionate about that you want to share with others, right? And if you're going to share this with other, how exactly are you going to do it? Because you can only talk to so many people every day. And that's why social media seems like a natural. So I'd ask people all the time: "It's like, okay, so you have this passion. If you think it's important, what are you doing with it? And don't be shy; tell everybody about it because if it's something you think is important—and we all think the veterans' issues are—this is the opportunity and the way to do that."
Anthony Shop: Yeah. Yeah. We saw at that event, after you know those wonderful people on the panel, well-known folks kind of challenging them to do it, people saying, "Yeah, I've been so busy. It just feels like that this is something that I should do, but I haven't done. But I'm going to post here. I'm going to share this. I'm going to tell people why I'm at this convening and... and what we can do to make a difference." And then you saw the positive momentum from that.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. And I think that... I think the thing is, like, there are so many people like you. They will identify, they will support you, they will... because they... you're not... you're not thinking this in... in... in a vacuum, especially around veterans' issues.
Anthony Shop: Yeah, absolutely. And I want to go back to the moment you sort of used LinkedIn, because I'm sort of curious about what that was. But it doesn't sound like you went and did that post because some communications person told you you should do it. You sort of had something that you came across that you decided to share, and then when you saw that you... "Hey, this is working. I'm getting connection requests, people are sharing it," that motivated you to continue doing that. Is that right?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah, right. So at that period of time, I think I had about a thousand followers or connections on LinkedIn. And I had used it primarily for professional stuff. Here was my profiles, my resume; if I wrote an article or wrote a book or something, I made reference to it. But that was pretty much blast information, kind of "live resume," right?
So I realized that, you know, I never really thought about posting not about my own personal accomplishments but about the story. And now that I have this job in government, right, I can make the connect and say, "If this moves you, maybe you'd like to think about some other resources or some other ways." So it was really around sharing more broadly. Yeah. And... and also interpreting it, right? "Hey, this stands alone, but if you think about it, what they're... they might be saying..." I forget exactly. "Hey, this benefit's available to you." You might be in... you might be a person who would have see the story and figure out, "Oh, I should take the action you're describing."
Anthony Shop: Yeah. And you know, when you go in person to uh American Legion or you're having a town hall, you know people have a little bit of time to connect with you on a human level, right? It's hard to do with a big group of people, but you know, you chitchat with people and so forth. Um, on social media, I think that we all realize that authenticity—when that comes through, that makes a difference. It's, you know, people are more likely to read something. And I think you've done an interesting thing uh done a great job with your balance of having sort of professional announcements and things from the VA, but also those more authentic human moments. I mean, even something as fun as you had a post about, you know, the Die Hard movie before Christmas. Why do you think it's important to let a little bit of that humanity in, and what advice would you have for other leaders when they're trying to find the... the right balance of it not just being corporate updates but, you know, letting a little bit of the personal side in as well?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. Well, I think everybody, you know, you can connect a bunch of different ways. So you're right; I'll use my presence on social media to do things like, "Hey, did you know these people were veterans? Babe Ruth is a veteran," right? Just interesting kind of things that make you appreciate sort of how it all took place. So some of that... that reflects some personal interest, a big baseball fan, some of that.
And then there's just sort of cultural things that just strike you as interesting. So there's a long-running history in our family with the Die Hard movie, to include getting the book that became a Christmas gift that let you do this and gives you more insight to this. And so you just kind of want to say, "Hey, this I know is topical. I know my followers are connections are veterans; they will engage and the like." And so it's just another thing. And I would encourage people to think about that, but I wouldn't do it like... you know, I am very critical of folks. "Here's a picture of me in the beach, and I... I had a great time at the beach, and this is awesome and wonderful." That's interesting; I'm not really into that, okay?
I'm not so saying you got to pound away at your subject matter ad nauseam, but there is a fine balance. I think to what I'm trying to achieve is a level of professionalism and focus on the issues that matter to me, and the intersection between my passion as a veteran, my passion as a person, and what I do for a living and the mission I have here. So I've really tried to get that sweet spot so folks think about my brand is "This is a person who cares deeply about veterans," and what you'll read on there is content focused not on him, not on going to the beach, not on what... but here's some interesting things that will help you understand how you can contribute, what you might be able to do with our benefits, or just something that might be interesting that will keep you in this community and engaged.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because um when I've worked with leaders who are thinking about getting more active, sometimes they say, "Well, I don't want to be that self-promotional person that's just talking about myself." And now that we've, you know, had 130-plus chief influencers like yourself featured, we can say, "Great, you don't have to do that. Look at these examples." They make it about the audience—what do they care about? What's relevant to them? And if having that personal tie-in like the Die Hard thing is going to resonate with people and have them pay attention, that's great. But if it's all just "me me," it kind of feels icky, and frankly, it doesn't usually work very well. And so I think hearing you say that might help folks who are wanting to get over that hurdle see that there is a path to do that where you can let a little bit of that humanity in um and not just be, you know, promoting what you did yesterday.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Right. So we saw a post... I saw I saw a feed from the Small Business Administration about a veteran who had used their programs to become an entrepreneur and was very successful, okay? So I reposted that and said, "You know, this is a great story because veterans often leave... leave the military... 'Well, I don't want to go to college. I... I want to get a job at big company, sit on a desk and be an IT person, or what shall I do?'" So I used that to explain, "Look at this person, here's all... and understand at VA, here are the programs that can enable you to do something very similar."
That was really well-received. And it was simply taking the story and explaining. Now, behind the covers, if you will, you could do this too. There's a whole bunch of programs and resources that could help you do that. So it was really exactly your story; it was about taking that, maybe better explaining it. Because I was thinking what people do is like, "Oh, look at John." John... it was a guy. John is not his name. Or, "Look at this. Wow, I wish I could have done that." That here. And my thinking was, "Let me explain how you could."
Anthony Shop: Yeah. And I'm sure your colleagues at the Small Business Administration appreciated you doing that, too, because they actually... they actually said as much on social media. Because I mean, it's kind of breaking down silos. If we're... you obviously government has to be broken up into departments and agencies and so forth, but you have these common goals of, in this case, you know, enabling veterans to do the things that they want to do with their lives after service. And um, I think social media is sometimes an easier place to break those silos down because it's a lot easier to repost something and to share that story with your audience than to, you know, have to organize some inter-agency meeting or something.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: It's very funny you mentioned that because there are inter-agency meetings, and they are ones that are geared toward the Under Secretaries. So what we just decided was the meetings were an hour long and—the one I'm thinking of—the feedback was: "Let's set the meeting for a half hour earlier and use that time to network in... in person to talk about exactly what he said—how should we be working together and doing stuff together?" So we're trying to do that in person, but it's much easier on social media, ironically.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. And I think when we also think about getting those messages out, I've seen some good examples um across sectors of reaching the right content creators who have an audience already who may want to share—maybe they have an audience of small business people and they want to share that resource with their followers, for example, too.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Right, right. I don't know if that's something you all do much work in... no. Um, it... it's rather unintentional. Yeah. It's rather unintentional, but it happens. I get a lot of reposting people like sharing with the network and... and and the like. And so I find that really interesting because it's often not the big names or the big groups or the big followership; it's more like people, "Hey, I did not know this," and I'm sharing it with the... the more niche things, like the nonprofits that have a... a limited reach. So I think that's very rewarding when that happens.
Anthony Shop: And in that case, I mean, when we think of LinkedIn, LinkedIn's not the platform where we're trying to, you know, reach millions of people necessarily with one post um intentionally. They sort of want it to be engagement with a smaller group. But if you reach that leader of a nonprofit with that message who may be a CEO or a leader there, and then they put it in their newsletter and that goes to 100,000 people, you can really scale that message pretty effectively by communicating leader-to-leader on a platform like LinkedIn.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: And I've noticed also what happens is through the direct messaging feature people will write me. Yeah. You get some folks trying to sell me silly stuff.
Anthony Shop: You get that, yeah.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: You get some folks... "Hey, can you help me with an issue I'm having with VA?" So we have a mechanism to do that. But also people go, "You know, I did not realize you were interested. I run a nonprofit. Is there any way we connect to discuss this?" So it's really kind of plays its way out in very interesting ways.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. And I think it's interesting you mentioned the direct message thing because sometimes people think, "Oh, this big-time person, are they actually going to get these messages? Are they going to read these messages?" And we featured as a chief influencer um the ambassador from Liechtenstein, Georg Sparber. And he mentioned that, you know, small country, small team here, but he really has to try to punch above his weight and get his message out across the country. And I think he does it pretty well. We featured and he likes LinkedIn and that direct message feature. He said, "You know, sometimes he gets a message there that he wouldn't have necessarily gotten otherwise, and it unlocks that." And so knowing that there's a direct line to reach leaders—you know, not that everybody can necessarily answer every single message—but that that line of communication is open in a way.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. No, absolutely. So I do review them and I have folks look at them, too. Look at the comments on the post. The secretary, Secretary Collins, is active in many, many platforms: X, Instagram, and the like, Facebook. We have a team that looks at them because it ties to sort of a point you made earlier. He believes that a younger veteran is more likely to engage with him on social media, us on social media. Those comments get looked at. Some are, you know, critique of us. Others are sort of requests for help. Some are requests for "I'm in real trouble," and those get instant help. So it's really a very powerful... very powerful mechanism.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. I've read about some of the ways that the VA has been communicating and doing outreach. You have the "Choose VA" enrollment campaign, for example, where, you know, emails and texts and, you know, all kinds... postcards... you know, every single way of "get the message out." Um, I'm curious: what are some of the ways that you hope the VA's communication and outreach will continue to evolve over the next couple years so that veterans and caregivers and families can more easily understand and maximize the benefits that they've earned?
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. Our challenge is pretty clear. As I mentioned earlier, there's 17 and a half million veterans, and we connect with about nine or 10... nine or ten million of them, okay? Our challenge is really get it... connect with everybody. Now, it doesn't mean they have to come in and get healthcare if they're not eligible, like... but what often happens: during times of emergency, we start blasting out information. "Hey, there's been a big fire in an area of the country, a flood, a hurricane. You need help and assistance now." Yes, we'll take care of your veteran, but we also take care of other people.
And so having a connection—an email address, a phone number, and the like—enables us to instantly connect with folks and do stuff like that. So we think this is a huge challenge and what we have to deal with. So it's kind of mentioned earlier: what is the avenue by which we do this? So in the perfect world going forward, we'll have all 17 and a half million folks, at least their emails or at least a number, so that we can engage with them as needed, right? But we also want them to know, you know, we're here.
And if you didn't think you needed services when you were left... when you were 22 and you were in super great shape... in good shape later, when things begin to happen to you, we're here for you. Good example is folks from the military forget: you're around loud noises. Doesn't bother you when you're 22 or 26. You'll wake up in 40 and you will be losing your hearing. We will help you with that, right? That's kind of what we want to make sure. So the challenge of communication will continue forever. You know, over time, I think technology will be more natural, right? And so I think that's what we're looking for.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. It kind of breaks your heart when you know there's a resource available that someone could take advantage of and they're not. When I was at the convening, I spent time with some folks from Fisher House and learned that, you know, there are these amazing Fisher House facilities near uh VA hospitals, and families that need a place to stay can go stay there. And there are these wonderful, incredible facilities, and... but not everybody even knows that they exist. And so it's like, "Okay, we got to make sure people know about this so they can take advantage of it." And then it starts to turn the tide on how people...
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. You would think everybody would know about Fisher House, but we ever have people say, like, "My veteran husband, brother, sister, whatever, is in the hospital. I can't come and visit because it's too expensive in the neighborhood." And we say, "Wait a minute." Yeah, we have this relationship with Fisher House. Under certain circumstance, you can stay at no cost, right? So there's again... it's all these resources that are available that just a matter of sort of connecting and identifying.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. And you make the point: we'll never be done communicating, right? I mean, there's always going to be more. There's always new people, there's always new resources. Um, but when we think about this idea of influence, that's why we have to figure out how to deliver the right message to the right people at the right time and then who to influence to get the message out to their communities. You know, this show, Chief Influencer, is obviously all about influence. And so I want to close by asking you: how do you define influence today, Dr. Lawrence? And how has your view of influence evolved across your career, having done so many things? And obviously many of the tactics we've talked about today have evolved or... or emerged significantly.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. So I would say if you ask me a definition, I would say it's driving the right message, right? That there's important information. If you can focus it and share it with folks and if it resonates, they will repeat it and share it. So ideally, it's, "Hey, did you wear this benefit? You where you can use the GI Bill?" Driving the right message and... and getting that out and... and and having a purpose for that. Not just "buy my box of soap," um whatever, and that won't go. But you can do that—that's influence.
What I have come to understand is—and this would be my message for folks you're talking about, "Hey, other senior leaders"—like, it is a lot easier than you think through social media. I think it's easy to think about it, "This is like the cesspool," and whatever, but it's really not. It's a vehicle to provide information. And so how would... how would I have done the same thing 30 years ago? Well, maybe what... I would have been a guest columnist in Time magazine if it... at it... at its high point, right? But you couldn't do that because that's very limited. Now, of course, there's so many different ways to do that.
So I think it's having... having the right... something to say, being thoughtful about it, explaining why it matters, and letting people know this... this helps all of us. If you can kind of get involved in that. The most rewarding thing is people say when I meet them in person, "I follow you on LinkedIn." That's really... that's really... that's really exciting to think about something that is being generated is so valuable people do that. It's not so much about me; they would have said that to anybody. But, "Hey, I understand what you're talking about," or to hear somebody repeat an idea that has been discussed in something I posted. "You know, I've been thinking about this. I've been thinking about this transition thing." Or I saw somebody... "But wow, that's really a message that really is helpful, and now others are talking about it." So it's really that kind of thing. And I just think it's easier. And your point about to other folks in government is like: this is a powerful tool. We tend to think about sort of the negative consequences of it, but if you're careful, I think it can really help your mission and your cause.
Anthony Shop: Yeah. Absolutely. Um, there's so many themes and takeaways from the conversation that we've had today, Dr. Lawrence, about influence. I want to just share a few things that... that come to mind for me. Um, first, where you closed there, I think, is starting with the why, right? Like, what's the point of doing this? Not just to promote yourself is... you have a powerful message you want to get out, and this is a vehicle to reach people. That message, you know, tools A, B, C, D may not get to them, but this can reach them: YouTube, LinkedIn, etc.
But I think that you've done a really interesting job of showing us how to connect some of the styles that have worked for you early in your career and transforming them for today. For example, you were editor-in-chief of a newspaper, and now you're publishing and you're curating, but you're doing it on... on LinkedIn. And you know, maybe you're still the editor, right? I mean, you're able to decide what to get out there, but you're able to reach people in different ways.
When you were a consultant, you have a teaching style: you like to help people learn and you like visuals and you're using a whiteboard in that environment. Well, you probably didn't imagine back when you started using a whiteboard that that was going to turn into a YouTube video series to help veterans learn about, you know, their burial eligibility. But you leveraged that capability and you've transformed it. And I think those are really important lessons for leaders: you don't have to reinvent yourself. You don't have to become a TikTok dance, you know, uh meme person or, you know, jump on some viral thing to be able to use these tools. You can leverage some of the skills and the capabilities that you already have but use them in a way that works today.
I also thought it was really powerful how you shared that the VA and you personally are going out and doing these town hall meetings. You're taking unfiltered questions, which is, you know, an uncomfortable position to be in, I would think. Even though you've done it a lot, um, it can be uncomfortable to know that somebody's gonna ask a tough question and, you know, could be difficult. And you're using that to, one, divert them to somebody who's in the room who actually can help solve their problem with a laptop—which I think is pretty cool—but to say, "Wow, there's a theme of these questions that I'm hearing that would make a great video."
And that turned into the burial eligibility video that we heard, for example, where now many more people can see that and we've seen, you know, many thousands of views on that video. So obviously it resonated with others, it helped them solve their problem. And I think that's a lesson for leaders: if we want to influence others, if we want to know, "Well, what content should I create? What... what should the post be about or the video?" Well, let's start by saying, "What are the things I'm hearing about? What are the questions that people are coming to me with?" And how can I use that to decide what's going to be valuable to my audience? And then you can tell if it's valuable or not by who watches it and who likes it. And so you've built... you've taken a mechanism that existed probably for a long time, town halls, but you've used that to supercharge another type of communication, which is what you share through the "Glad You Asked" series, for example.
And then the last thing I want to mention is something we've said a lot on Chief Influencers, that "faces are the new logos." You know, trust in institutions—we've all seen all of these polls and research—is generally down. People trust people. So if you can have a real person with their actual face communicate something... and that's why, you know, an event like a town hall makes a big difference, because the government becomes human when a government official comes.
But the way you've decided to... not... of course, you have news releases and blogs and press releases, all kinds of things that come from the VA, but you've added a new communication channel where they get to know Dr. Lawrence. They get to know you a little bit and hear it in your words and from your point of view. And, you know, you challenged other leaders—I would say the way that our... our panel that I referenced at Face the Fight challenged folks—to think about how can we, as leaders, leverage the power of our personal influence and our personal brand, whether that's YouTube, like your whiteboarding for the the series, or whether that's posting on LinkedIn. Um, and that started when you had something that you wanted to get the message out; you did it on a Sunday and you saw, "Wow, this works." And so you built up, and now you have, you know, 20 or 30 times more followers than you did at that moment.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. So some really powerful lessons, I think, that leaders—whether they're in government or out of government, or in a... do you... whether they work with military veterans or a different sector—can really learn from how you show up as a leader and how you show up as an influencer to get your message out and get the message of the VA out. I'll end with a story that you might appreciate.
So part of what we're doing right now is implementing a set of technologies, our new electronic health record. And it's basically a new way to do work, and so we have to literally train hundreds of thousands of people to do this, and we are spending tens of millions of dollars on the training. So when I go out to visit the sites—and I was in Anchorage about a month ago—have a roundtable now with what we call "super users," the folks who are getting extra training so when the system goes live they can sit with you and explain if you didn't miss the training, "Hey, have a question, I'm here to help you."
Okay. Go around. Two women in the round... in the town hall basically... in the in the the roundtable basically said, "You know, the training is kind of cumbersome and I'm getting a lot of questions. We started making videos where we answered the questions: 'How do I log on? How do I do my job?'" They showed me these videos. These were so great, I started posting them and saying, "Hey, are you aware of this? Here's some training," with the hopes that other people will be doing the same thing to increase usable training so that people will adopt the system and enable us to provide the care. So it's really this sort of from-the-ground-up. The videos were smart and clever, and all they were doing was answering the questions and sharing screens and showing how to do the work, which is literally what we're spending a small fortune having companies do and teach and train. It was awesome. It just made my day. I was happy to post it, and I hope I get a lot more of these so that more people learn how to... how to do their jobs. So it was really... it was really exciting.
Anthony Shop: That's great. Well, that's a great example, you know, leading by example because you're doing these types of videos yourself and now others are doing it, which is sort of the the best uh you know, they say imitation is the ultimate form of flattery. I mean, if others are posting those videos and answering those questions, that must feel really good.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Yeah. No, it was exciting, and the videos are really good, and I think they're going to move the needle on showing people, you know, how to do your job. And that's... that's... that's really what's all about.
Anthony Shop: That's great. Well, for folks who don't already, I hope that they will follow the the VA's YouTube channel, that they will follow you, Dr. Paul Lawrence, on LinkedIn to see what you're posting and what you're sharing. Not just to know about these benefits—which we should all know about because, I mean, all of us and our friends, families, networks, if not ourselves, you know, have a connection to the veteran community—but also to see how you do it and the type of reaction you get and how you uplift others, like the example that you shared from the the SBA and that intergovernmental uh work that's happening on... on social media. So I just want to say um thank you so much for being with us today. Thanks for sharing your words of wisdom with our Chief Influencer community, and we really appreciate what you do.
Dr. Paul R. Lawrence: Thank you, Anthony. You, too. Thank you so much.
Anthony Shop: Chief Influencer is a production of Social Driver. We help clients transform complexity into clarity with people-centered strategies. Whether you're looking to elevate the influence of your brand or of your leaders, check out socialdriver.com to learn more. For show notes or to nominate a guest, visit us at chiefinfluencer.org or follow Chief Influencer on LinkedIn.
